Curse

Vanquisher · Sep 12, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Bolding is cool!

I'm not going to even bother quoting, but just respond in a direct way now.

The title system is there to recognise the achievements of an individual. Be it their achievements in Tombs, Arenas, or GvG. It is also there to recognise someones achievements in PvE, but I don't see anyone complaining about that at all? Instead, when someone gets "Legendary Survivor", "Legendary Vanquisher", "Legendary Defender of Ascalon", etc, all they recieve are congratulations. Rank discrimination hardly exists, ok? The statement that it does just highlights your ignorance in playing. Teams do not generally like taking pickups at all. If they can get people they know, they are one thousand times more likely to do that than accept some random guy in a district. When they do look for some random guy in a district, they look for people who are more likely to know how to play that area of the game. This is nothing new. Rank only comes into it when there is a choice of two individuals of which the team members know nothing about. To claim otherwise is just wrong. Maybe if people who weren't ranked high enough to be considered pugs for the better groups in HA actually played, rather than complaining that they weren't a high enough rank, they might actually get to be a high enough rank. How the hell do you think people who are that rank got there in the first place? Simple fact is, someone who is rank 12 is going to be far more experienced in Tombs than someone who is unranked. Also, getting rank 9 takes very little time if you do have people you know are ok at the game. The standard of Tombs is pretty poor on the whole.

I never said the game could be perfectly balanced. To believe it could would be incredibly stupid. However, you were the one who said that balance is overrated and that the game doesn't need to be at a state anywhere close to balanced, which is just wrong. The reason I bring the fact that you haven't played in a level close to where balance is required is because it is clear that you do not understand how important it is. This is pretty standard. If you don't know how important balance is, then you are not in a position from which to argue about it. You, as a player, do not require the game to be balanced well. However I, as a player, do. This is a direct reflection upon the type of game we are playing, and it is clear that you are unwilling to understand that playing a game where you have absolutely no chance of winning unless the other team makes one royal screw up, is not fun. Going into a match with little to no hex removal, only to see all your bars turn purple, get "miss" above the targets head with 80% of your attacks, and not having a hope of winning is incredibly unfun, and to say you even have a chance of winning just proves you have no knowledge of how the game is played at such a level.

Comments like that show my lack of patience with someone who refuses to accept that there is a need for balance being a high priority in this game. You clearly have very little knowledge of how the game is played, but you like to think you do. Someone earlier brought up the point of going to tell everyone about DoA, after having barely done it before. This, to me, sums up what you're doing here. The fact that your voice could, in theory, have an impact on the designers and the feedback they get, when its so clearly there in order to either troll, or is just woefully misguided, is a concern to those of us who do still play, and do want the game to actually be somewhat fun to play.

Sab · Sep 12, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

D E C E P T I V E: Listen. You have no top PvP experience. What insight into top PvP can you possibly provide? The answer is: none.

Lets say I failed high-school biology. I walk into several doctors discussing advanced research, something I don't understand. I tell them they're all wrong, being a doctor is easy, and to listen to me for medical advice. They tell me to GTFO.

Sound familiar? I'll continue.

The doctors try explaining their research to me. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the knowledge I need in order to understand what they're saying. So I tell them that being a doctor is easy.

Now, in all seriousness, if you're willing to accept that your lack of experience is impairing your judgment, I'm happy to explain why your arguments are rubbish. Otherwise, please be quiet, the doctors are talking.

glountz · Sep 12, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The title system is there to recognise the achievements of an individual. Be it their achievements in Tombs, Arenas, or GvG. It is also there to recognise someones achievements in PvE, but I don't see anyone complaining about that at all? Instead, when someone gets "Legendary Survivor", "Legendary Vanquisher", "Legendary Defender of Ascalon", etc, all they recieve are congratulations. Rank discrimination hardly exists, ok? The statement that it does just highlights your ignorance in playing. Teams do not generally like taking pickups at all. If they can get people they know, they are one thousand times more likely to do that than accept some random guy in a district. When they do look for some random guy in a district, they look for people who are more likely to know how to play that area of the game. This is nothing new. Rank only comes into it when there is a choice of two individuals of which the team members know nothing about. To claim otherwise is just wrong. Maybe if people who weren't ranked high enough to be considered pugs for the better groups in HA actually played, rather than complaining that they weren't a high enough rank, they might actually get to be a high enough rank. How the hell do you think people who are that rank got there in the first place? Simple fact is, someone who is rank 12 is going to be far more experienced in Tombs than someone who is unranked. Also, getting rank 9 takes very little time if you do have people you know are ok at the game. The standard of Tombs is pretty poor on the whole.

What is exacly your take on titles ? I agree with you that rank discrimination only occurs when Pugging, and has never been taken into account in guild groups (which are the main teams in Tombs), even if many Guilds recruit people at some given rank only (or number of baltha-which is rank discrimination wether you admit it or not). I don't mind so-called elitism, it's normal. I could be called elitist for example, we only accept in my guild 20+ years old people, less for a matter of skill than a matter of having a job, a family, and sharing the same references/experiences. But I'm thinking that titles had a negative impact on every PvP gameplay where they were introduced, not because it induced elitism, but rather farming/boring gameplay behavior.
Do you support PvP titles? I certainly don't.

EDIT: I'm not, and never was (sadly) in a top guild (best rank I had with a guild was 438 If I remember). But GW PvP doesn't revolve only around Top 100+, is it?

Vanquisher · Sep 12, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

First, no GW PvP does certainly not revolve only around the highest level. The problem only comes in regards to balance, where the top level is the one that must be looked after most, as it is the one where it will have the most effect. It is also the one where people are most likely to understand the problem, and have the majority of the better solutions towards fixing it.

As for titles, they're merely records of achievement, just as they are in PvE. Before titles, in the BWE's, were rank sticks, which did exactly the same. These were carried around in outposts, and had orbs circling them. I personally like the fact I can display my achievements in this game, even though they are almost nullified by the fact that, given enough time people can easily pass them. However, they are purely cosmetic. The only achievement that has ever really mattered to me in this game is the 2 major tournaments that have been held, both of which I failed to go to. I may as well just be grinding out on that mob of Ettins or Hill Giants to get that Superior Vigor Rune unlocked.

Anyone who really takes titles all that seriously outside of a pickup situation is just being ridiculous.

Winterclaw · Sep 12, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

D E C E P T I V E: Listen. You have no top PvP experience. What insight into top PvP can you possibly provide? The answer is: none.

On a theoretical level I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Let's say you were friends with a Top HA/GvG guild and they tell you about how it's like on that level from time to time. You'd at least know something about that level of PvP. And if you studied it more even if you never get farther than the mid ranks, you know even more still. Would you have the knowledge of experience? No. Would you have no knowledge at all? No to that either.

A number of people have mentioned getting rid of titles and emotes for rank... I say for a month let's humor them by disabling them in HA.

Chicken Ftw · Sep 12, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A number of people have mentioned getting rid of titles and emotes for rank... I say for a month let's humor them by disabling them in HA.

Go ahead and disable rank emotes and titles. You'll just be killing the semi-decent pugs. Everyone who's ranked will look to their friend list even more so than they do now, and everyone who's not will form unranked groups that suck so badly, they can't even make it to Underworld.

DreamRunner · Sep 12, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

On a theoretical level I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Let's say you were friends with a Top HA/GvG guild and they tell you about how it's like on that level from time to time. You'd at least know something about that level of PvP. And if you studied it more even if you never get farther than the mid ranks, you know even more still. Would you have the knowledge of experience? No. Would you have no knowledge at all? No to that either.

A number of people have mentioned getting rid of titles and emotes for rank... I say for a month let's humor them by disabling them in HA.

So, if you go and start punching air with kicking over and over again for 1 year does that make you a good fighter? No it doesn't. An actual fight would be a lot different, but sure, the training on punching could help you deliver a better punch. But what I'm trying to say is that a practical experience of doing something is so much different than learning it from a book or listening to people talking about fighting.

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 12, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Bolding is cool!

However, you were the one who said that balance is overrated and that the game doesn't need to be at a state anywhere close to balanced, which is just wrong.

The only parts of your argument that even seem relevant are the parts like this where put stuff like this in saying it is what I said when I never said anything like this. Dont know if you are never learned how to read on middle school level or if you are just stupid. Go back and re read it, maybe graduate middle school first.

Sab, you dont know me, neither of you know me. I do have PvP experience in mid level guilds, havent broght it up because I dont want this discussion to turn into a ridiculous whoever has most rank must be right kind of thing that you people like to turn it into, and have stated several times and backed it up with rational points that the degree of rank and experience people like you like the think you have to have to understand and play this game with skill is not so. Because you dont like it and this hurts your ego in some way doesnt disprove it.

The rank/title thing isnt about you as seem to think it is Vanquisher. Its not about making it easier for others to play with people like you. I dont want to play with people like you, dont imagine alot of people do. The comments regarding rank have been explained and supported and are not what you have made them into. Before you continue to make assumptions without any basis whatsoever to stand on think about who is being ignorant here.

This thread was started because of the dead PvP world. People have made insight and offered suggestions that the some of you "pro" PvPers (a bunch of losers with no life imo) do not like and you have attacked with your typical STFU NOOB style and Im a R12 your a R0 end of discussion because thats only argument that you can stand on. Thats not going to get anything fixed, and it wont make a better game.

TabascoSauce · Sep 12, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I just think it is interesting that posters here are comparing Guild wars PvP to being a Navy Seal and/or an M.D.

You do realize that you spend more time training to be at the lowest level of either of those professions, than the entire commercial life of Guild Wars?

Those comparisons are ludicrous at best, and ego-stroking to boot. Like, say, comparing Stratego to passing the CCNE final.

If it makes you sleep better at night thinking that you are true "athletes", then kudos to you.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard or read about some poor Guild wars "athlete" crying for a nerf of the latest FotM that could not be beaten by "pure sportsmanship and skill" because it was "cheese" or "imba" to the point that even a monkey could use it, I'd be rich.

How you rectify comparing PvP to actual professions or sports is truly stunning. This product isn't even 2 and a half years old, and here we are talking about how PvP is stale and anti-competitive. The rules are constantly changing, because they want the game to "stay fresh"? You would not even be halfway to being an M.D. at this point, and the rules do not change there to keep it interesting.

Stop the exaggerations. Stop favorably comparing yourselves to an actual profession or sport. Its not healthy.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Taki · Sep 12, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

For the few sensible posters/readers:

(1) By it's very nature, Guild Wars can never be truly balanced. The goal then, should be to keep the game as close to balanced as possible - to have Chess pieces that look and feel different (skills, professions, weapons, character hairstyles etc) but maintain the same abilities and purpose as the piece they're modeled after (think attack, defend, utility and knights, bishops, pawns etc) so as to reward the players that use them more effectively within their strategy or counter-strategy (head-to-head, split, gank, push, collapse etc).

This is why proper, frequent balance was so important for this game, why the previous inadequate efforts go against what was originally stated or intended by the designers, and why the game got so damn stale so early.

(2) Many good players in the game tend to exagerate or overestimate the skill it takes to be good at GW. To be fair, only a handful of people from past top guilds have ever pm'd me to rage about losing to unknown/low ranked/smurf-accused players like my old guild running non-gimmick builds.

But any intelligent gamer with the ability to process lots of information and a sense of awareness can be great at Guild Wars if they so desire (usually match/strat callers). Lacking these, any person with decent reflexes, decent computer, decent internet connection to the game servers, and decent ability to follow commands or work as part of a team can be good at this game (doing what caller[s] asks while knowing when/where to deviate or act on your own so no one has to babysit you).

The problem is that there is a serious lack of people that possess any meaningful combination of any of the above. These people are the scourge of the community. Like the smell of dog shit on your carpet that never seems to go away.

______________________________
Don't post that again

Chicken Ftw · Sep 12, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

Dont know if you are never learned how to read on middle school level or if you are just stupid. Go back and re read it, maybe graduate middle school first.

Hell does this have to do with anything? "Are never learned" isn't proper English by the way, maybe you should watch your typing before insulting someone else's intelligence.

Quote:

I do have PvP experience in mid level guilds

Means nothing, guilds full of PvE players can get to rank 300-400ish, it's not that hard. They won't know what it'd take to fix PvP.

Quote:

I dont want to play with people like you, dont imagine alot of people do.

Actually, lots of people'd love to play with Vanq. At least you'd know he knows what he's doing. <3

Quote:

Before you continue to make assumptions without any basis whatsoever to stand on think about who is being ignorant here.

Take your own advice imo.

Quote:

People have made insight and offered suggestions that the some of you "pro" PvPers (a bunch of losers with no life imo) do not like and you have attacked with your typical STFU NOOB style and Im a R12 your a R0 end of discussion because thats only argument that you can stand on. Thats not going to get anything fixed, and it wont make a better game.

Wrong, just so wrong. People are giving BAD IDEAS, so of course they're shot down. 1v1 would suck. Removing rank won't fix anything. None of the terrible suggestions so far from mostly PvE players will fix PvP. Who would know what it takes to fix PvP? Oh right, someone who actually does it seriously, at a high level.

Stop trolling and start listening. You might just learn something.

Winterclaw · Sep 12, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Chicken, no gaurentee about that either way and it'd only be temporary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

But what I'm trying to say is that a practical experience of doing something is so much different than learning it from a book or listening to people talking about fighting.

You'll get no arguement from me there. Experiencing something for yourself is good. However that doesn't mean you can't learn at least a little without experiencing things for yourself.

Coridan · Sep 12, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

what cracks me up about this stuff as with any arguement about pvp killed pve or pve ruined pvp...is that generally speaking the ones doing the bitching are "strictly" one or the other...and they are usually the ones that are the direct cause of ruining one aspect or another...either by gimmicking...cookie cutters...botting...etc etc.... rarely do you see someone who does both pvp and pve complain.

brian78wa · Sep 12, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

So going into a match where you know youre going to lose because of your build and having absolutely no chance of success is your idea of a challenge?

Who says youre going to lose? Who knows what build the other has. No one.
You win some you lose some simple as that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Im so glad you have NOTHING to do with balance or high end PvP...
This re-enforces my post. Firstoff you give serious PvP players a headache because you dont have a clue about playing PvP at any sort of resemblance of a serious level. Yes you have ideas and theories on PvP, the problem is that EVERY one of them are wrong and you dont understand that concept. There have been a few worthwhile people that have posted in here that actually know PvP matters, community, metagame, and playstyle that is going on in the current PvP scene. The rest of you are posting useless trash liek a 1v1 tournament or make polymock PvP or some bullshit about how you couldnt get into that r9+ pug because youre only r3 and think you deserve to play with any group forming in Tombs/HA.

Reality check. There will be some people who will understand PvP and be able to play it at a top level and be successful. There will be many many many more who fail at it. The ones that fail at it are usually the ones bitching, complaining, and ranting about elitesim or that we have too many skill balances or even the dumbshit idea that PvE balance is more important than PvP skillbalance. There have been several good posts from many players who do play PvP regularly and have a good knowledge of what they are talking about. Unfortunately there have been far too many posts from people who quite honestly have no reason to post there thoughts or ideas other than to try and make themselves look intelligent and like they have a clue, but turn out to be just some random bullshit that is either wrong, or based off of PvE gameplay.

Ya ok Im wrong because YOU say so. thats funny.

I used to PvP on a regular basis but like I said I quit because of people like you that think there shit doesnt stink. Alot of people on this thread has very valid points. Just because you dont agree with them doesnt make them wrong. You sir are an ass plain and simple. Youre one of the people im talking about to where if they dont agree with you they are wrong and you throw a fit about it like a little kid. Swearing every other word. Chill out its just a game. Enough said.

Malice Black · Sep 12, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Play nicely, or the sandbox gets closed.

brian78wa · Sep 12, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Play nicely, or the sandbox gets closed.

You know that on the issue on PvP/PvE that will never happen.
All the Elitists come out spouting what is right and wrong because they know it all. If someone doesnt agree with them that person is wrong,ignorant,stupid etc.
Might as well close it because this will be an on going battle and I can almost gaurentee it will get more heated. Because of the idiots think that they are the only one that can make a point.

Mai · Sep 12, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

If someone doesnt agree with them that person is wrong,ignorant,stupid etc.
Might as well close it because this will be an on going battle and I can almost gaurentee it will get more heated. Because of the idiots think that they are the only one that can make a point.

The irony in that statement just wins.

brian78wa · Sep 12, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

The irony in that statement just wins.

How is this ironic?
its the truth. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions and there is no reason
that they need to be calling anyone else stupid, saying they are flat out wrong etc. Its fine if you disagree but just because YOU think someone is wrong doesnt make it true. So make a counter point but you dont need to tell them. You know nothing, dont post blah blah blah.

Malice Black · Sep 12, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

You know that on the issue on PvP/PvE that will never happen.
All the Elitists come out spouting what is right and wrong because they know it all. If someone doesnt agree with them that person is wrong,ignorant,stupid etc.
Might as well close it because this will be an on going battle and I can almost gaurentee it will get more heated. Because of the idiots think that they are the only one that can make a point.

I haven't seen any elitists...

Vanq and the rest have offered some good solid advice and followed with good reasoning.

I don't PvP, and even I realize that most of your posts were bad. You made some valid points, but if you enter into a discussion you have to accept the fact people will disagree with you, and that you might be wrong (or right)

So, calm down, read the posts, accept the fact that you were wrong, and learn from it.

And yes, this will be closed soon, nothing new has been posted in the last few pages, just people re-wording someone else's post.

Yichi · Sep 12, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

Who says youre going to lose? Who knows what build the other has. No one.
You win some you lose some simple as that.

There are many matches that as soon as you load into them within 1 minute you can already tell if you have any hope of winning it or not. With observer mode its also possible to get a feel for some guilds and be able to know or at least have a vague idea of what type or play style of build they are running. This is very crucial in deciding a strat for the match and how your team plans to counter it. When you load in and get ready to play and then when the time comes that you do see what you're facing and you absolutely know that you have no chance, than thats build wars. If everything was perfectly balanced or even close to being balanced, any decent team with a decent build should have a competitive chance no matter what they come across and this isn't the case, no matter how much you try and sugarcoat it, its not going to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

Ya ok Im wrong because YOU say so. thats funny.

No I and others think you're wrong because your information is wrong and just about anyone else that has knowledge on the current problems in PvP, and the current workings of someone who does a little more than AB and RA have all posted much more intelligent and meaningful information than a lot of people who have posted here. I could go through and make this same argument for at least 20 different posters who HAVE posted in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

I used to PvP on a regular basis but like I said I quit because of people like you that think there shit doesn't stink. A lot of people on this thread has very valid points. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them wrong. You sir are an ass plain and simple. You're one of the people I'm talking about to where if they don't agree with you they are wrong and you throw a fit about it like a little kid. Swearing every other word. Chill out its just a game. Enough said.

When did I say that my shit doesn't stink? When did I ever claim that you did not have a right to post your opinion on an open forum? When have I ever claimed to be the "Holy PvP Master" and everyone must listen to me?

The fact of the matter is that I do have a good knowledge and first hand experience of the workings and issues that are brought up here. There have been many people here who have posted and made a very valid point and have posted correct information. These posters include Vanquisher, Kunt0r, the guys from pT (sorry forgot your forum names), Avarre, Sab, and a few others including myself. Others have posted and posted an argument that they felt strongly about, but they were corrected in their information, just like you have been, yet were not the ones whining at all and argue that point. You can defend, justify, or theorize your posts and points all you want, but this still will NEVER change the fact that the information you're trying to pass along is wrong. It's funny that you say that I'm being a little kid and throwing a fit and swearing every other word, when I have actually posted very rational, very calmly thought out posts and am laughing through reading 3/4 of this thread. I have used very little profanity in my posts and have tried to relay a clear message to anyone who has input on PvP and to the devs in charge of game change and design. Yes the way that I put things is going to come across as an asshole, but I'm real, plain and simple. Ill tell you the truth and expect to be told the same back. The truth of the matter is that many of the posters here do not grasp nor have experience with whats going on in PvP at a level other than playing the occasional HA match, or Fort Aspenwood, Jade Quarry, AB, or RA where a lot of the issues that have been brought up in this thread don't apply.